RecSciPod S01E16 full transcript
Timestamps:
- 0:00 Intro
- 1:13 How was your week?
- 5:04 Mansplaining study
- 21:38 Neuron recognition study
- 35:25 What did you learn today, outro
Intro
Lu: Welcome everybody to another episode of Recreational Science, the podcast where we explore creativity in science by examining some of the funniest, wackiest, and most provocative studies ever done. I’m Lu.
Tirth: And I’m Tirth. Listeners, come with us on this journey, okay? This journey where two loosey-goosey scientists discuss loosey-goosey science.
Lu: I like that. I like that. Loosey-goosey.
Tirth: Yeah. Like lefty righty. Wait, wait. No, it’s lefty loosey, righty tighty, right?
Lu: No idea what you’re talking about. We’ve gone over this. I don’t know any of these nursery rhymes.
Tirth: That’s right. We talked about this couple episodes ago. Well, you got some homework to do, man. You got to get caught up on these things.
Lu: No, please, I have science to do, Tirth.
Tirth: Oh, is that right?
Lu: I do. Every day.
Tirth: Wait, real science or recreational science?
Lu: Both. Depends on your perspective.
Tirth: Well, I guess the word science in there, so it’s fine.
Lu: Exactly.
How was your week?
Lu: Tirth, man, haven’t talked to you in a couple of weeks. How’s your week been?
Tirth: The week’s been good. I was sick earlier this week. I had the sniffles. I powered through.
Lu: Sick again? Well, you were sick two weeks ago, if I remember correctly. We had to delay recording.
Tirth: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. But I powered through and I recorded that episode. You know, it’s like Michael Jordan had the flu game. This was my flu episode.
Lu: I see. Okay. That’s why that episode was so bad. I see.
Tirth: You say that all the time, a lot. Hey, you got any tip for the sniffles, man? I seem to get them a lot, you know?
Lu: You do. Yeah, you know, it’s interesting how you get the sniffles and you say it’s because you’re getting sick when we both know…
Tirth: Wait, hold on. No, no, no. Hold on. What else could it be?
Lu: You know, occasionally you’ll indulge in a little, you know?
Tirth: No, I don’t know. Can you spell it out for us, please?
Lu: We had an episode about this.
Tirth: We did?
Lu: Like two episodes ago. You know, the bees with the…
Tirth: Oh yeah, with the honey, with the honey. No, no, no. I’m not, I’m not sniffing honey.
Lu: Okay. I think it’s best to leave that alone.
Tirth: Best to leave that alone. So what I’m really getting is you don’t really have a remedy for my sniffles.
Lu: Me? I’m just a pathologist, Tirth. Why are you asking me for medical advice?
Tirth: Didn’t you study FGF and nasal turbinates in mice in grad school?
Lu: Oh, please, please. Very different.
Tirth: Don’t humans have turbinates?
Lu: Not olfactory turbinates. Common misconception.
Tirth: I see. Well, clearly I had this misconception.
Lu: Yeah. Check yourself, please. Tirth, why don’t you ask me about my week?
Tirth: Well, I was just about to, man, but you jumped the gun. So please tell me, how was your week?
Lu: Thank you for your question, Tirth.
Tirth: Oh, you’re welcome. You’re welcome.
Lu: I was abroad. Because you know, I travel. I like to travel. I like to explore new cultures, explore foreign lands. You should try it out sometime.
Tirth: Well, we’ll see. Let’s just say there are some hurdles to this.
Lu: Oh, interesting. We’ll leave that alone too.
Tirth: Yeah, let’s leave that alone too. So you were in Mexico, right? One of your favorite places.
Lu: I was in Mexico, yeah. I was in Cancun for a Research Conference. It’s very nice.
Tirth: Very nice. What did you do at this meeting?
Lu: What didn’t I do, Tirth? Of course, you know, I was the keynote speaker. I get invited to…
Tirth: Yeah, we had a whole episode about this…
Lu: …to give keynote talks all the time, as you know. So of course, I blew everyone away with my talk. Very, very well received. I’ve heard I’m going to get a very nice award in the near future for this work.
Tirth: Wow. Well, I’m rooting for you, buddy.
Lu: Thank you. Thank you.
Mansplaining study
Lu: Well, Tirth, a couple of days ago, I emailed you a questionnaire. I never do this. We never prepare for the podcast, but I sent you a questionnaire in preparation for today’s podcast.
Tirth: Yeah.
Lu: Now you filled out this questionnaire…
Tirth: Wait, how is that possible? Hold on. This questionnaire was just ranking a number of statements. How could I fail that?
Lu: No, you filled…
Tirth: Oh, I filled it. I’m sorry.
Lu: You hear what you want to hear.
Tirth: I’m just so used to telling me that I failed at something.
Lu: It’s okay. That’s common human psychology. Now, I didn’t tell you what the questionnaire is about. I didn’t tell you what the topic for my paper today is about.
Tirth: Nope. That’s correct.
Lu: Which we never tell each other.
Tirth: No, it’s on purpose.
Lu: Do you have any idea what it’s about and what the topic might be?
Tirth: So based on the questions that I filled out, I think maybe it’s like about the average man or the average person in science, like or the perception of themselves. Maybe it’s about the Dunning-Kruger effect, you know, or like the Impostor Syndrome.
Lu: Oh, very interesting. I’m going to tell you right now you’re wrong. The topic today is the men.
Tirth: Men, okay.
Lu: We’re very gross creatures, aren’t we Tirth?
Tirth: Oh, absolutely. 100%.
Lu: Very gross.
Tirth: 100%.
Lu: There’s nothing to like really.
Tirth: No.
Lu: Very disgusting. We’re terrible people.
Tirth: Yeah, absolutely.
Lu: We’re full of ourselves. We’re idiots.
Tirth: Dumb.
Lu: We do dumb stuff. And we do this thing called mansplaining. Have you heard about this? You know what I’m talking about?
Tirth: Yeah, mansplaining. Yeah, it’s when a man explains…
Lu: Mansplaining is when a man condescendingly explains a concept to another person, usually a woman, but could be another man, regardless of whether or not the explanation is needed, and regardless of whether or not the man knows more about the topic than the other person. Do you know about this? You’ve heard about this, mansplaining?
Tirth: Yeah, of course.
Lu: Good, good, good. Do you mansplain, Tirth?
Tirth: I try not to.
Lu: Do you engage in this heinous act?
Tirth: I try not to, but I think we’ve talked about this part before. Men not only mansplain, but they also manspread, which I do engage in.
Lu: That’s right, that’s right.
Tirth: But listen, man, it’s possible. It’s possible I’ve done some mansplaining without realizing. I think that’s one of the core features of mansplaining, right? Is that the person doing it doesn’t even realize that they’re doing it.
Lu: The man doesn’t know. Yeah, exactly. It’s not intentional. It’s just part of how we communicate and how we perceive the world.
Tirth: Yeah.
Lu: Disgusting. Disgusting.
Tirth: That’s right.
Lu: Of course, I don’t mansplain because – we’ve been over this – you know, I drive an electric car. You know, I don’t partake in toxic masculinity.
Tirth: No, no.
Lu: You know, I use fabric softener, I moisturize.
Tirth: Wow.
Lu: I moisturize every day. I order rose matcha lattes with oat milk. Easy on the tummy…
Tirth: I don’t even know what that is.
Lu: …at the cafe, out in public, I don’t care who knows.
Tirth: Hey, do you also use a separate conditioner and a shampoo or do you use one of those five in one?
Lu: Thank you for asking. Thank you for asking. My shampoo and my conditioner, separate bottles. You probably use that two in one crap, don’t you?
Tirth: Five in one, man. Five in one, not two in one, five in one.
Lu: What is that? Body wash, toothpaste, and shaving gel?
Tirth: Shaving gel, shampoo, conditioner. Yeah, that’s right.
Lu: Wow.
Tirth: Saving so much money, man. LA is expensive, you know. They don’t pay us that much.
Lu: Wow. It’s amazing the versatility of these men’s products.
Tirth: I bet a man came up with it.
Lu: Yeah. You know what I do love doing though, instead of mansplaining? I love teaching people facts about their culture. I love doing this. I’ll tell them too. I’ll tell them, let me teach you something about your culture.
Tirth: Hey, did you do this at the conference in Mexico? Did you teach them about their culture?
Lu: Oh, of course, of course. Well, that’s the one thing I didn’t like about Mexico, my Mexico trip, which was everybody at the hotel spoke English.
Tirth: And you tried speaking with them in Spanish.
Lu: Exactly. But they didn’t speak Spanish. You know, I would say something simple like, estoy segundo más caliente, manzana, también, you know? Very basic Spanish. They would have no idea what I’m talking about. They would just stare at me and reply back in English.
Tirth: Do you think this is because they were thinking this man is an idiot? Or they were thinking this man is way too cultured for us?
Lu: No, no, I think they just didn’t speak Spanish.
Tirth: I see.
Lu: Yeah. It’s very disappointing. You know, I go there for the culture, to explore a new culture, be in a foreign land.
Tirth: Yeah, you don’t want to be the ugly American.
Lu: But no, no, no, this is what I do. This is what I like doing to people, you know, because I want people to understand their culture. So for instance, Tirth, did you know that India is the most populated country in the world?
Tirth: Yeah, I did know that. Yes.
Lu: Did you know that Indian food is known for their use of spices?
Tirth: Yes, I did know that too, believe it or not.
Lu: Okay, now you know, now you know. Did you know that Hindi films often incorporate song and dance numbers?
Tirth: Oh, is that right?
Lu: Yes, the elaborate song and dance numbers. This is what I contribute to people when I converse with them, you know?
Tirth: Wow, incredible.
Lu: It’s not mansplaining. I’m just trying to teach people about their culture.
Tirth: Right, because you’re a giver.
Lu: Yeah, exactly. I’m a very giving man. I’m glad you agree. But other men, you know, they partake in mansplaining. There’s some famous examples of mansplaining, if you look up on Twitter. For instance, a man once explained to a doctor what an x-ray is. A 22 year old woman was once explained what a square is. Another woman was mansplained about how to spell her own name.
Tirth: Wow. Yeah. That’s peak mansplaining right there.
Lu: So a couple of female scientists asked, why do men mansplain? Why do it? What is the psychology underlying this phenomenon of mansplaining? Or does it even occur at all? Maybe it doesn’t really occur.
Tirth: Right. Right. That’s the first question. Because anecdotally, it does seem like it does, but is it actually a thing?
Lu: Exactly. Because there’s no scientific evidence behind it, until now.
Tirth: Right. Right. Okay. Wow.
Lu: So the study, it’s called “Mansplaining Explained: the Role of the Better Than Average Effect and the Interpretation Bias in Accusations of Mansplaining.” It’s published in 2024.
Tirth: Great year.
Lu: In the journal Psychology of Language and Communication.
Tirth: Oh, great journal.
Lu: Very good journal. The scientists are from the Netherlands. So studies have shown that men and women actually have very similar psychological traits. Like we’re not all that different. But there has been plenty of studies that have shown that men think themselves to be better than average. That’s the better-than-average effect. Men think themselves as being smarter than average…
Tirth: Stronger. Also stronger than average….
Lu: All people do, but the effect is stronger for men than women.
Tirth: Well, there’s also this thing where men think they’ll be able to fight off a bear. It’s like a poll that was going around on Twitter.
Lu: And studies have also shown that men tend to have higher self-esteem than women. So the scientists asked, does this contribute to mansplaining? And the other part is something called the interpretation bias, which is the effect of interpreting an ambiguous social situation as negative. Specifically in this case, it would be if a man explains something to you, do you interpret that to be condescending rather than helpful or just neutral?
Tirth: Right, because a man is explaining it.
Lu: Right, or anybody really. Even if it’s done in a neutral way, you interpret it as condescending. So they did a couple of studies. The first study looked at the better-than-average effect. Here they asked, do men think they know more than women? So they asked 247 participants, half male, half female, to fill out two questionnaires. The first questionnaire presented 15 very common conversation topics that may induce mansplaining. The 15 topics were chosen to be gender neutral. So they were topics like music, food, movies, stuff like that, art, and the subjects were asked to rate how much they knew about each topic compared to the average man or woman. They were randomized to compare themselves to either the average man or the average woman. They were asked to rate themselves on a scale of 1 to 7.
Tirth: Hey, just like I was.
Lu: We’ll get to you. We’ll get to you in a second.
Tirth: Okay.
Lu: So 4 will be, you’re about average. If you gave yourself a 4, no better than average. How do you think the men did?
Tirth: Well, I think the numbers are probably different when they’re comparing themselves to other men or to other women.
Lu: Actually it wasn’t.
Tirth: Oh, okay. So I think the scores are like 6 or 5.8 or something.
Lu: Actually it was 4.1.
Tirth: Wow. So bang on and like average.
Lu: Yeah. For women, what do you think?
Tirth: Lower than 4, like 3.2.
Lu: Actually, basically exactly 4. So slightly lower than the men, but not statistically significantly so. Very close: 4.1 versus 4.0.
Tirth: So at least in this study, they didn’t really see better-than-average effect basically.
Lu: Yeah. I gave you the same questionnaire.
Tirth: Oh, there’s only like 5 questions…
Lu: Yeah, it’s modified. I didn’t want to, you know, take up too much of your time. But let me just tell our audience how you did.
Tirth: Okay, go ahead.
Lu: You rated yourself an average of 5.8 on a scale of 1 to 7.
Tirth: Oh, are you going to tell them what the questions were though?
Lu: No, no, no, no, please. No, no. 5.8. Wow.
Tirth: Listen, man, one of the questions was, do I know more than the average man about South Asian cuisine?
Lu: Yes, and you gave yourself a 7.
Tirth: Well, yeah, of course, compared to the average man.
Lu: Compared to the average man. Tirth, Tirth, did you know – we’ve talked about this – but did you know the most populous country in the world is India?
Tirth: Yes, we just talked about this.
Lu: Just talked about this.
Tirth: That doesn’t mean the average man is Indian.
Lu: Pakistan, very populated country, highly popu – Bangladesh, very populated country.
Tirth: Okay, that’s true.
Lu: I would argue that the average man in the world is Indian or South Asian.
Tirth: Maybe, maybe.
Lu: So Tirth, please. You don’t even live in South Asia…
Tirth: I used to, I lived there for 15 years.
Lu: No, please, Tirth.
Tirth: Okay, well, how about modern art? You should tell our listeners that I rated myself average when it comes to modern art.
Lu: That’s the only one you gave yourself an average score at. Everything else was 6 and 7.
Tirth: Well, the other ones were neuroscience and neurology, like my day job.
Lu: Have you done the study to make sure that you know more than average? Or is that an assumption?
Tirth: Well, no, it’s an educated assumption.
Lu: 5.8, Tirth. No wonder you’re a mansplainer.
Tirth: Wow. Wow. Listen, man. Let me explain something, okay? Just by definition – just because there’s an average, that means that there has to be people who are above average, people who are below average.
Lu: And it’s interesting how you think you’re above average, basically in every case.
Tirth: Well, in those questions.
Lu: Nothing was below average. Please, Tirth. It was a random set of questions.
Tirth: Right, okay. Well played, man. Well played.
Lu: So, the first part of the study didn’t really find a better-than-average effect. Second questionnaire asks the question, are men more likely to offer explanations in conversations than women?
Tirth: Okay.
Lu: So, the participants were given six conversation scenarios. For example, “a friend tells you that they bought an electric bike,” and the subjects were then given three possible responses to that scenario, and asked to rate how likely they’re to give each response. The three responses always included a response that gives an explanation or advice. In this case, it would be, “I explain to him that he needs to discharge the battery completely before charging it again.”
Tirth: Right.
Lu: Another response is one that requests more information. In this case, it would be, “I ask him where he bought the bike.”
Tirth: Right.
Lu: Third response is a supportive response: “I tell him that I am happy for him.” Very supportive. Again, the gender of the conversant in the scenario is either male or female and is randomized. So, they found that men were not more likely to explain, to give the explanation response than women, regardless of the gender that’s been explained to.
Tirth: Oh, wow.
Lu: However, they did find that subjects who thought they were better than average from the first questionnaire were more likely to explain.
Tirth: Got it. Got it. That’s pretty good.
Lu: I also gave you this part of the questionnaire.
Tirth: Yes. Yes, you did.
Lu: Three questions. For the responses that offered an explanation, your average score across the three questions was 3.
Tirth: Yeah, below average.
Lu: On a scale of 1 to 7, so pretty good. You don’t like to explain.
Tirth: I’m not a mansplainer, like I said.
Lu: The request for information response, your average score was 5.7.
Tirth: See? I always want to know more. I’m a good scientist.
Lu: Like a good scientist. Very good. And then being supportive, the response that’s supportive, your average score was only 3.7. Below average, not very supportive, which is very unfortunate. This is what I tell you all the time, man. You got to think about other people.
Tirth: Maybe you’re rubbing off on me, man, I don’t know.
Lu: No, please. Please. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m a very giving man. We talked about this earlier.
Tirth: Well, do you want to tell the listeners what the questions were or no?
Lu: No, no. I’ll post a screenshot of Tirth’s response on Instagram for our listeners…
Tirth: With my reply to your email.
Lu: Yes. Yes. So the second study is asking the question, is there an effect of interpretation bias? Specifically, are women more easily offended by explanations than men, especially when the explanation is given by men? Here they came up with 10 scenarios to present to each subject. These scenarios were taken from examples of mansplaining found on Twitter and YouTube. For example, one scenario was, “you have had a cycling accident and are now in the hospital. Your friend Peter visits you and tells you that you should have kept your bike steady to avoid accidents.” And then for each scenario, they were asked to choose whether the response is helpful or condescending.
Tirth: Right. Okay.
Lu: And again, they randomized whether it’s a male or female who’s saying it. So in this case, it was Peter, but in another case, it would have been like Amanda or something. So this story, the scenario was actually adapted from a tweet by someone named Annemiek Van Vleuten, who’s a female Olympic cyclist, who tweeted that she’s in the hospital after a bike accident. And a Twitter user responded, “first lesson in bicycling, keep your bike steady.”
Tirth: That’s amazing, man.
Lu: What do you think the results were, Tirth? Basically, they compared male participants versus female participants to see who’s more likely to say that the response is condescending.
Tirth: Well, let’s tackle it from the other way, right? I would say if the participants were told that the person speaking this is a man, they’re more likely to say it was condescending.
Lu: Yeah, that’s true. So basically, if it’s a man, of the 10 scenarios, on average, 5.6 of the 10 responses were thought of as condescending or negative.
Tirth: So slightly more than average.
Lu: If the responder was a woman, it was more like 5.1.
Tirth: Okay, okay.
Lu: Okay, but what about the main question, which is are women more likely to be offended by the explanations?
Tirth: Right. I don’t think so. I actually think men thought… I would say men would think that other men…
Lu: Oh, because they have big egos, you think, maybe.
Tirth: Right. I think they have a chip on their shoulder.
Lu: Actually, men on average thought 5 out of the 10 scenarios were condescending, whereas women thought 5.7 were condescending.
Tirth: Oh, so it’s flipped.
Lu: So, females were more likely to find the responses to be condescending, which actually was statistically significant.
Tirth: Interesting, interesting.
Lu: Anything to… I don’t have anything to add to that. Tirth, do you have anything to… How would you interpret that? How would you… I don’t have anything, you know, for me, please…
Tirth: You son of a gun. You’re putting me on. I see what you’re doing.
Lu: How do you interpret this?
Tirth: Listen, I’m going to do this. I’m going to do this fully knowing fully well what I’m walking into, okay? Just for the content. I want you to know I’m doing this for the content. So I would interpret this actually as – first of all, well, you know, I want to make a comment. The scenario you gave me about the person on Twitter, that could just have been a joke, right? People on Twitter are insane, okay? Some of the stuff they say on there is completely unhinged.
Lu: True, true. It’s a socially ambiguous scenario, which is what they’re going after.
Tirth: Fair enough. So I would say, I would interpret this to say that women in general in socially ambiguous or open situations are more likely to perceive something being explained to them as slightly more…
Lu: 5.7 out of 10 versus 5 out of 10.
Tirth: …right, as being condescending. And now, and then the effect to me doesn’t seem strong enough to sort of get at the core question that the authors are asking, right? Like, is mansplaining a thing because women are easily offended or not? I’m not sure any of this really answers that question.
Lu: Yeah, but you know, I have some criticisms. One of them is that the subject pool may not be representative of the general public. In fact, most of the subjects are chosen from the first author’s social, immediate social circle. They might be scientists, they might be PhD students or whatever.
Tirth: Right.
Lu: And actually, most of the people in her social circle were female.
Tirth: Makes sense.
Lu: So to get more male participants, they went to another source, they went to the internet. So the male versus female population, not comparable, potentially different groups of people.
Tirth: Yeah, different people.
Lu: And they also said this, but there might not have been many mansplainers in the subject pool. So the amount of mansplaining that we see could be due to very, very few mansplainers out there.
Tirth: Yeah, like the outlier effect.
Lu: And also this doesn’t say that mansplaining doesn’t exist in real life or does exist in real life. For that, you really need like an observational study. But interesting, interesting, right Tirth? Interesting. Next time someone accuses you of mansplaining, you have an excuse.
Tirth: Please.
Lu: Again, this isn’t my interpretation. This is essentially what you said.
Tirth: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a term for that. It’s called gaslighting.
Lu: No, please, please. Data, Tirth. Again, I’m not saying any of this is, I have no interpretation for this study. It’s all, it’s all, this is all you. This is very… this is good for you. Yeah, you love this study, I’m sure.
Tirth: You might even say it’s self-explanatory. You don’t even have to explain any of it.
Lu: I don’t explain anything ever.
Tirth: Yeah, why would you?
Lu: Why would I?
Tirth: Yeah. All right, that’s good stuff, man.
Lu: That’s it for me, Tirth. What you got?
Neuron recognition study
Tirth: All right, I got something for you today. Before I get into it, let me pose a scenario to you, okay? We’ve talked about a bunch of scenarios. Let’s say you and I are in your people’s land. Let’s say we’re in China, okay? Let’s say we’re in Shanghai. Big city, massive city.
Lu: Oh, very good city.
Tirth: Well, I’ve never been there, so I’ll take your work for it.
Lu: Me neither. Actually, I take that back. You know, as a man who travels a lot, yeah, of course I’ve been to Shanghai. Please go ahead. Very cultured.
Tirth: Yeah, very cultured. So let’s say you’re standing outside a train station, and one of China’s famous bullet train comes in, I get out of the train and you’re standing like really far away from me. Let’s say you’re standing like a football field’s length away, like 100 yards away.
Lu: So I’m on the station platform watching you get off a train from a football field away?
Tirth: Right, right. And me, of course, being your best and perhaps your only friend, how many seconds – how long would it take for your brain to recognize my face, you think? Keep in mind again, as I said, I’m your best friend, perhaps your only friend.
Lu: Perhaps. Okay. Okay. As you know, in Asia, there’s not a whole lot of diversity.
Tirth: Absolutely, which is why I picked China for this part.
Lu: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. You will stand out very easily, given your dark complexion…
Tirth: My beard. My beard.
Lu: Yes, your beard, of course. Yes, yes. We’re going to cut out the thing I said… So I would say a football field away, am I looking in your direction?
Tirth: Yes, you are. Let’s say you are.
Lu: I’m looking directly in your direction. Probably take me like a second.
Tirth: Okay. That’s pretty good. That’s pretty good. That’s pretty fast. So this phenomenon of recognizing faces and objects, how quickly our brains are able to do it, if it’s someone that we know or recognize, it’s pretty fast and it’s been a burning question in neuroscience. How does our brain do it? That’s the subject of today’s paper. It’s actually from my own backyard. The title is, “Invariant Visual Representation by Single Neurons in the Human Brain.” This paper was published in the year 2005 in the journal Nature.
Lu: Very good journal.
Tirth: Very good journal. And these people are all at UCLA. The lead author is a neurosurgeon.
Lu: Wow. Okay.
Tirth: So before we get into this, do you have any thoughts? Because over the course of history, a lot of philosophers and neuroscientists have had a lot of conjectures about how the human brain recognizes faces and objects.
Lu: Do I have a guess? Well, I’m not a neuroscientist, but I’m guessing maybe different parts of the brain might react to different features, or different neurons might react to different features, and maybe they transmit that information to another set of neurons, and maybe…they transmit to it… it’s like a network.
Tirth: So, exactly. Yeah. A lot of people have thought the exact same thing you just said. But then there’s a second group of people who’ve been saying for a long time that there’s probably a small population of neurons or single neurons that are dedicated to specific faces and objects. There’s a term for this, it’s called the grandmother cell.
Lu: So, I would have a neuron for Tirth.
Tirth: Yeah, that’s right.
Lu: Specifically for recognizing Tirth.
Tirth: That’s right.
Lu: In what part of the brain?
Tirth: In the temporal lobe or the hippocampus, somewhere like that.
Lu: The hippocampus. Okay. I would have a Tirth neuron, I would have a neuron for my mom, I would have a neuron for apples…
Tirth: Right, exactly. But if you spend just an extra 10 seconds on this, you realize pretty quickly how absurd this sounds. You mentioned your mom, and in fact, someone theorized in 1970s at one point, you probably have cells to recognize your mom. But then people realized that if you have that, you must also have a different cell for your mom standing up, for your mom sitting down, your mom upside down.
Lu: You know, the more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Because before the time of cell phones, we have to remember people’s phone numbers, right? That’s really hard. But then there’s an invention called speed dial. Where with a click of one button, you can reach the person you wanted.
Tirth: Yeah. Very convenient.
Lu: This will be the brain version of a speed dial, where you dedicate one neuron to one person who’s really significant in your life.
Tirth: Well, there you go. You should have been a neuroscientist, my friend. That is the main hypothesis for this study.
Lu: I see.
Tirth: They’re saying that there are single cells or small groups of cells in people’s brains to recognize famous faces.
Lu: Oh, for famous faces, like celebrities too.
Tirth: Yeah. And that’s how this was done.
Lu: Oh, okay.
Tirth: So here’s the setup. As I said, the lead author is a neurosurgeon, so they selected eight patients. These are patients with really bad epilepsy, so they have uncontrolled seizures, to the point where they are on multiple medications, and as a last resort, what happens to these patients is that the neurosurgeon goes in, takes out a part of the brain that’s generating seizures. In order to identify the region of the brain that’s causing the seizures, what they do is they implant electrodes directly into the brain. So now you’re recording from a very small population of cells. They have these patients, they have these guys in the hospital hanging out for a couple of weeks, they’re recording from the brains 24-7.
Lu: And they can record individual neurons, you’re saying?
Tirth: They can, yes, depending on how the setup is done. It’s like small groups or even single cells.
Lu: Wow, okay, very cool.
Tirth: Yeah, it’s very cool. Technically very challenging, but very cool. So they said, well, we have eight patients, let’s take advantage of this opportunity.
Lu: Very good, thinking like a good scientist.
Tirth: The data they presented on this paper is from three of those eight patients. They had a screening portion where each of the eight patients was given a laptop, and the researchers flashed 94 images on average of celebrities and landmarks on their screen, and they’re recording from their brain the entire time.
Lu: Just in a row like sequentially?
Tirth: Yeah, correct. But it was all timed. So for example, the people they showed them were people like Kobe Bryant, Mother Teresa, Saddam Hussein, Jennifer Aniston, The Simpsons, Osama Bin Laden.
Lu: I don’t know why they had to include Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden.
Tirth: I mean, I guess it was 2005 in the Iraq War was going on, so maybe. I don’t know. For landmarks, they had the Sydney Opera House, the Leaning Tower of Pisa, stuff like that.
Lu: The Taj Mahal? Which is from India, by the way, in case you didn’t know.
Tirth: Of course. Thank you for explaining it to me. I appreciate it very much.
Lu: Of course. I’m a teacher. Continue, please.
Tirth: So in response to each image, they recorded the neurons and looked at two things: is there a specific population of cells or a single cell that’s firing a lot more than normal? And if so, is it firing a lot quicker than normal? The time scale is like 300 milliseconds to one second. So it’s like the time you said it would take you to recognize my face in China.
Lu: Okay.
Tirth: And they looked at all these images. They picked out the images that elicited the strongest responses. So not all the images triggered all the neurons, right? Only a subset of them did.
Lu: So if they found that a neuron was triggered, it would suggest that that neuron has a role in recognizing the image?
Tirth: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. They said, can we identify a special or unique population of cells responding to one thing only? And the first patient characterized here, this patient had a group of cells, a group of neurons that fired only in response to Jennifer Aniston’s face, on average between 300 and 600 milliseconds. That’s it.
Lu: Okay.
Tirth: Out of the 94 images he was shown, this specific group of neurons only responded to Jennifer Aniston’s face.
Lu: I see. And they would say that these neurons are used to recognize it? Maybe he was like, maybe he had a crush on Jennifer Aniston, which many people did back in 2005. So maybe these were just cells for sexual attraction.
Tirth: Maybe.
Lu: Did they have a control? Other attractive people?
Tirth: Yeah. So they had like Halle Berry as part of this. But here’s the other kicker: this set of cells responded to Jennifer Aniston only when she was the only one in the picture. Her pictures with Brad Pitt…
Lu: Oh, yeah. You don’t want that. You don’t want to see that.
Tirth: …they did not fire.
Lu: No, no, no. You don’t want to see that. Makes sense. Makes a lot of sense.
Tirth: So these are Jennifer Aniston cells, okay? But there was a second patient who only had Halle Berry cells. That only fired in response to Halle Berry, and one set of cells that only fired to images of her dressed up in Catwoman, because this is the time when Catwoman came out.
Lu: Oh, I see. A very well-reviewed movie. This man must have been a huge fan of that movie.
Tirth: Yeah, a super fan. And not just that, these cells not only fired to images of her, but also just the text, Halle Berry. They had a slide with just her name on it.
Lu: Just her name? And they responded?
Tirth: Yeah.
Lu: Okay, but here’s the control: image of cats. Did the same cells respond?
Tirth: I don’t think they did that.
Lu: Oh, maybe they’re cat cells. Cat neurons.
Tirth: And then lastly, there was this one person that had neurons that responded to the Sydney Opera House.
Lu: Specifically? No other structures? Not the Eiffel Tower…
Tirth: I mean, these cells may have responded to other things, but this group of cells- very strongly, very consistently, only the Sydney Opera House.
Lu: That’s incredible. I mean, the other two, I can understand. The Halle Berry and the Jennifer Aniston, and it kind of makes sense, I guess, because there could be feelings and stuff. Just the Sydney Opera House? Is this guy from Australia? Did he visit Sydney recently?
Tirth: It doesn’t say.
Lu: Confounding factors… Maybe he was born in the Sydney Opera House.
Tirth: Maybe he was conceived in the Sydney Opera House.
Lu: Maybe he lost his virginity in the Sydney Opera House. These questions should have been asked. And I’m going to guess you’re telling me that they didn’t ask these questions.
Tirth: Sadly, no, they did not. They should have.
Lu: Maybe he committed a murder in the Sydney Opera House. We don’t know. We don’t know.
Tirth: But what’s crazy is there’s a Baha’i temple that kind of looks like the Sydney Opera House, and these cells are responding to that.
Lu: Wow.
Tirth: So yeah. And then they have these other examples like cells responding to the Beatles, only to the Simpsons, Bill Clinton. Nothing as strong as the ones they talked about, the Jennifer Aniston cells and the Halle Berry cells.
Lu: Wow. Wow. So they didn’t do any follow up and ask these people, hey, does this person or this image have any special meaning to you?
Tirth: I don’t think so. I wish they had.
Lu: They should have. They should have. What if that guy slept with Jennifer Aniston?
Tirth: We don’t know. He could have. He could have, it’s LA after all.
Lu: She could have been his first love.
Tirth: We don’t know. They should have.
Lu: Maybe the other guy played Batman in the Catwoman movie.
Tirth: Well, the other incredible thing about Halle Berry as Catwoman is that they showed images of other actresses in Catwoman and these cells did not fire.
Lu: Wow. OK, very thorough. That’s quite thorough.
Tirth: Yes, it’s good work, man. I should just walk over to their lab and ask them, hey, did you follow up on all of this from 20 years ago? Because they’ve published other studies like other cells that respond to like moral situations, and I don’t really see a follow up to this specifically. I also tried finding it. Maybe I should dig deeper. It’s like, what did Jennifer Aniston make of this? Was she flattered? Was she disgusted? I don’t know.
Lu: How many people have this neuron? That’s what I want to know.
Tirth: Right, right. Yeah. Does like every teenager that grew up watching Friends, do they have this, you know?
Lu: Probably. The Jennifer Aniston neuron. Wow. That’s great. Now the Sydney Opera House though, that really gets me. He definitely did something in the Sydney Opera House. Committed some heinous crime. He did something really bad or really good in the Sydney Opera House.
Tirth: I mean, we don’t judge on this podcast, right? Maybe he just loves good architecture. Maybe he has a thing.
Lu: Well, maybe. Maybe. Wow. What’s the take home message here?
Tirth: Well, the take home is, many years ago, some guy came up with the idea of the grandmother cell and people laughed at him. But turns out he was more closer to reality than…
Lu: Why do you call it the grandmother cell?
Tirth: Well, I think the story goes that originally the idea was the mother cell, like you said, but then another guy responded and said, wait a minute, if you have a mother cell, you must also have a grandmother cell.
Lu: If you have a cell that just recognized you as a mom, you must have one that..
Tirth: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Lu: Do you have your grandmother on speed dial though?
Tirth: Oh, of course I do.
Lu: Oh, wow. Okay. Very good. Very good.
Tirth: I’m a good grandson. What can I say?
Lu: That’s very good.
Tirth: Well, any thoughts on this?
Lu: Wow. No, no, this is, this blew me away.
Tirth: It blew me away too, man. My own backyard, cutting edge.
Lu: The other thing they could have done is shown people images of like their loved ones and see if that elicited a response. If the idea of a speed dial neuron is true, then they would, right?
Tirth: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s probably true, right? If you think about it, that’s probably the next logical conclusion is that there has to be like one for your parents or your best friends. You know, maybe like you with me, you know, like when you see me at the airport or the train station…
Lu: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. The Tirth Neuron. One single neuron transaction. No multiple synapses required. The neuron connects to the retina directly.
Tirth: Revolutionary idea, man.
Lu: It’s actually just a cone cell from the retina.
Tirth: Yeah, just a retina cell.
Lu: No neuron needed. Wow. Oh, very good. Very good, Tirth.
What did you learn today?
Lu: I guess that brings us to the end of another episode. Tirth, what did you learn today?
Tirth: Lu, I learned today that anytime someone asks, tells me something about their life…let’s say a friend comes up to me and says, “hey, my dad’s very sick.” I should just start saying that “I’m happy for you.”
Lu: Yes. Be supportive.
Tirth: Yeah. Like you said, I’m not supportive enough. I think I should start doing it more. Like, “hey, I broke my leg.” “I’m happy for you.”
Lu: Exactly. Very supportive. Good. Good.
Tirth: Well, what did you learn today?
Lu: I learned today that I really should visit the Sydney Opera House. There’s something very special about that place and I’ve never been. I think we’re missing something. A place of great significance.
Tirth: For sure. For sure.
Lu: All right. Thank you guys for listening to our show. We really hope you enjoyed this episode.
Tirth: And if you like listening to us, subscribe, tell a friend and leave us a five-star review on whatever platform you listen to us on.
Lu: It’ll help us out a lot. All right, guys. See you next time.
Tirth: Bye.
